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Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Lundsby — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:22:45 GMT

In many cases I would say only investing 5.000-10.000 DKK in your website would be a terrible business decision.

First of all, people's abilitities are immensely different, the quality and how much they get done per hour vary more then almost any other craft.

Another fact, is that people charge as much as they can per. hour, if you charge 500 DKK per hour, it is because you believe that you can't get enough work at 600 DKK per hour. Not because you are a nice guy.

The market will defininately pay high hourly rates for quality work by talented people.

From a customers perpective, it is important not to under or over invest. I.e. if your Barcelona FC should not accept an offer from a Goalie in the Danish 1. division, who will do the job for 2 pints of beer and the honor.

If the investment in the restaurant is 500.000 - 1.000.000 DKK, then only investing 10.000 DKK on a central piece of marketing like the website, might be really stupid.

Even though restaurant owners are supposed to cook and keep their customers happy, they also have to keep the business running, and worry about marketing etc.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Thomas Frost — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:01:28 GMT

And by the way, it is a little funny you can tell us that a price is crazy without even knowing the project specifications :)

You have no idea how many individual pages designs there will be for that design and you dont know any specifics about the functions they need besides a newsletter. Maybe there will be a ton of jQuery and ajax and 10 individual page designs, you dont know. I think an estimate of 5000-10000 DKK is a lot more serious, than thinking 5000 DDK is a crazy price without having even seen the design or functions needed.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Niels Henriksen — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:58:42 GMT

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs:

I dont spend that time teaching my clients to use wordpress because I believe that a business owner should do what they are best at,

so take a resturant owner for example.

Why should he need to learn to make changes to his website ?

When he can just pop a mail to his web developer saying to make the changes..

He should spend his time doing wht he is best at.....Making food/keeping his customers happy and returning.

I like that :)

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Thomas Frost — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:53:09 GMT

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs:

I still believe it is crazy to charge 5-10 000 kroner for a website for a restaurants website.

I dont spend that time teaching my clients to use wordpress because I believe that a business owner should do what they are best at,

so take a resturant owner for example.

Why should he need to learn to make changes to his website ?

When he can just pop a mail to his web developer saying to make the changes..

He should spend his time doing wht he is best at.....Making food/keeping his customers happy and returning.

I am sorry to say it, but it is maybe because you are new to the business you think 5000-10000 DKK for a websiet is crazy. Depending on the designer it can cost a lot more.

You really have to understand that there is a big difference in what service level a customer expects.

Most of our customers want to be able to change everything them selves so they dont have to pay me to update their site. I am no expert in restaurants so I cant tell you the right way to run that business, but I do know that 90% of our customers want to be able to change their website whenever they need to without any extra costs.

Maybe the restaurant have some special courses every week, so they need to changes their menu page every week. As a businessowner myself I think it is an easy calculation. Spend 4 hours and then be able to change content myself or have to pay someone for every content change. I think it is quite obvious what I would choose and our customers feel the same way.

I dont know why it is so hard for you to understand that the price depends and many other factors than "it is just a website for a restaurant", and to be honest I see your statement as a provocation. I respect your way of working and understand why you charge the way you do, but it seems like you dont even understand a little bit why a website and a project can be more expensive than when you totally work 4 hours on a project.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:35:39 GMT

Thomas Frost:

Philip

Ok so I hope you can see that no one is crazy and the price is not crazy, it is only a matter of how much time we expect to spend on the customer.

I spend 4 hour just making the project-specs each time. I minimum spend 4 hours with each client to teach them about WP and how to update everything.

I spend some time testing that our crew did as instructed and that everything works.

So the reason somebody suggest 5000-10000 DDK for a professional solution is because some people spend a lot of hours not just on programming but also teaching the customers about WP and SEO and on testing and making project specs.

If I just spend 4 hours for each project I am sure I could I could sell WP solutions cheaper, but from my experience I spend 10-15 hours for a small project (+ hours for the frontender and PHP guys), so 5000-10000 DKK is not crazy at all, it just depends the degree of service and time spend on each customer.

*************************************

I still believe it is crazy to charge 5-10 000 kroner for a website for a restaurants website.

I dont spend that time teaching my clients to use wordpress because I believe that a business owner should do what they are best at,

so take a resturant owner for example.

Why should he need to learn to make changes to his website ?

When he can just pop a mail to his web developer saying to make the changes..

He should spend his time doing wht he is best at.....Making food/keeping his customers happy and returning.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Dulleshoppen.dk — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:14:06 GMT

Hej..

Jeg ka anbefale Jesper Schlebaum, som også har lavet min webshop www.DulleShoppen.dk

Du kan kontakte ham per mail jesper@schlebaum.dk

Hjemmeside www.schlebaum.dk

Mvh

Simone

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Thomas Frost — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:10:00 GMT

Philip

Ok so I hope you can see that no one is crazy and the price is not crazy, it is only a matter of how much time we expect to spend on the customer.

I spend 4 hour just making the project-specs each time. I minimum spend 4 hours with each client to teach them about WP and how to update everything.

I spend some time testing that our crew did as instructed and that everything works.

So the reason somebody suggest 5000-10000 DDK for a professional solution is because some people spend a lot of hours not just on programming but also teaching the customers about WP and SEO and on testing and making project specs.

If I just spend 4 hours for each project I am sure I could I could sell WP solutions cheaper, but from my experience I spend 10-15 hours for a small project (+ hours for the frontender and PHP guys), so 5000-10000 DKK is not crazy at all, it just depends the degree of service and time spend on each customer.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:46:45 GMT

Thomas Frost:

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs:

5000-10 000????

Are you guys crazy!

If its just a website for a resturant, It could EASILY be done PROFESSIONALLY for under 5000!!!!

And i mean 5000 INCULDING a unique GREAT design...

No one is crazy, dont worry

It all depends how much time you spend on each thing and what things the customer wants. If you dont know that you dont really know if the price or the people are crazy . Out of curiosity can I ask how much time you expect to spend on the following:

Pre-programming talking with the customer to make sure you understand each other and have the same expectations regarding the project.

Making a unique design

Setup a WordPress template from that design with all the functionality there is in WordPress.

Teaching and demonstration WordPress and the plug-ins used (SEO, contactforms etc).

After you tell me how much time you spend on these things, let me know what hourly rate you expect at the end.

10 hours * 500 DDK= 5000 DDK or 20 hours * 250 = 5000 DDK

Either way, if you are professional and make a living being a WordPress expert I dont see how you can make a site with unique design for under 5000 DDK. I usually spend more time talking and teaching the customer about WP and SEO than the programmer use programming. Most customer value that very much.

If you can make a WP site with unique design for like 3000 DDK, then go for it, I am sure there is a marked and you seem like a nice guy. But I have seen many of those companies and they usually dont last long. If you make sites for 3000 DDK you have to make 10 each month to have a paycheck and save up for your pension and pay expenses. Most one-man-companies cannot keep making 10 sites a month, as the quality just drops.If you have outsourced help you have to pay them and need even more income to make a nice living in the long run.

But it would be interesting how much time you expect to use on the above mentioned project phases.

****************************************************

Hello Thomas,

we spend around about 40 hours on each website

and we don't stop until the client is satisfied.

My personal hourly rate is $100 per hour.

I would be stupid if I can spend my time building WordPress websites because this is not what I do best at.

There are many people in the world who can make a wonderful WordPress website including a unique design for under $1000 very easily.

Not everybody needs to earn $100 per hour to pay their bills.

Lucky for me I'm not the only person in my company

I use roughly 4 hours per project

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Nyide — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:43:04 GMT

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs:

5000-10 000????

Are you guys crazy!

If its just a website for a resturant, It could EASILY be done PROFESSIONALLY for under 5000!!!!

And i mean 5000 INCULDING a unique GREAT design...

No thats normal. If you are a professionel web designer with you own companey, then 5000-1000 is normal. Let me put it up for you:

400 kr/ hour

Maby 3 days or more! on designing a website from scratch... That normal.. And then there is planing with your customer how the website should look and redesign, text and seo.

It all take time buddy :-)

- Emil

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Thomas Frost — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:35:12 GMT

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs:

5000-10 000????

Are you guys crazy!

If its just a website for a resturant, It could EASILY be done PROFESSIONALLY for under 5000!!!!

And i mean 5000 INCULDING a unique GREAT design...

No one is crazy, dont worry

It all depends how much time you spend on each thing and what things the customer wants. If you dont know that you dont really know if the price or the people are crazy . Out of curiosity can I ask how much time you expect to spend on the following:

Pre-programming talking with the customer to make sure you understand each other and have the same expectations regarding the project.
Making a unique design
Setup a WordPress template from that design with all the functionality there is in WordPress.
Teaching and demonstration WordPress and the plug-ins used (SEO, contactforms etc).

After you tell me how much time you spend on these things, let me know what hourly rate you expect at the end.

10 hours * 500 DDK= 5000 DDK or 20 hours * 250 = 5000 DDK

Either way, if you are professional and make a living being a WordPress expert I dont see how you can make a site with unique design for under 5000 DDK. I usually spend more time talking and teaching the customer about WP and SEO than the programmer use programming. Most customer value that very much.

If you can make a WP site with unique design for like 3000 DDK, then go for it, I am sure there is a marked and you seem like a nice guy. But I have seen many of those companies and they usually dont last long. If you make sites for 3000 DDK you have to make 10 each month to have a paycheck and save up for your pension and pay expenses. Most one-man-companies cannot keep making 10 sites a month, as the quality just drops.If you have outsourced help you have to pay them and need even more income to make a nice living in the long run.

But it would be interesting how much time you expect to use on the above mentioned project phases.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

MichaelValentin — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 06:48:03 GMT

Hej Rasmus,

Det ser ud som om du har fået en masse fine tilbud, så dem vil jeg ikke komme med flere af. Du spurgte til gengæld også efter hvilke "faldgruber", mv. du evt. skulle være opmærksom på. Det vil jeg da godt prøve at hjælpe dig lidt med; det kan nemlig være en sand jungle hvis man ikke aner hvad man skal gå efter.

For det første skal det siges at du ikke kan blive ekspert i det arbejde der skal udføres. Derfor er tilliden til din leverandør altafgørende; du er simpelthen nødt til at stole på at når de siger at det bliver gjort rigtigt så bliver det også gjort rigtigt. Den tillid handler ikke om hvor vidt du vælger den billigste eller den dyreste, men om hvor vidt du har tillid til din leverandør. Oftest skaber tidligere resultater, erfaring, faglighed, uddannelse, personlighed, mv. tillid, men det er en individuel vurdering. Er du i tvivl om noget ved din leverandør kan du evt. hive en ekstern konsulent ind over til at hjælpe med at kvalitetssikre. Især hvis du vælger en billig løsning, fra en leverandør uden den nødvendige faglighed og erfaring kan det være en rigtig god idé. De gør det ikke nødvendigvis af ond vilje, men man kan lave nogle rigtig store bummerter. Jeg kan selv se hvordan nogle af mine første projekter på visse punkter slet ikke lever op til den standard jeg ellers ville kræve som kunde, og jeg ville egentlig ønske at nogen dengang havde gået mig efter i sømmene og givet mig et vink med en vognstang om hvor der var plads til forbedringer.

Der er dog også nogle ting du selv kan være opmærksom på:

- OpenSource eller ej

Fordelen ved OS er at du selv kan have koden, og derved ikke binder dig til en leverandør. Det betyder også at der er langt flere som vil kunne hjælpe dig med ændringer, mv. hvilket burde give dig en bedre pris. På den anden side kan lukkede systemer have den fordel at de rent faktisk er bedre og at leverandøren har et mere indgående kendskab til dem; og at de således kan udvikle hurtigere og bedre til dig.

- CMS?

Hvis du ønsker dig et CMS, så vær sikker på at afstemme med leverandøren hvilke funktioner der skal være tilgængelige og hvordan. Det er vigtigt at det er nemt og enkelt at rette de ting i ønsker, men også at fortælle leverandøren hvilke ting i f.eks. ikke har behov for at kunne rette i. Det er klart at jo flere ting der skal være tilgængelige for jer at rette i, desto mere indviklet risikerer jeres administration at blive.

- Webstandarder og SEO

Generelt er det god stil at overholde diverse webstandarder for at sikre sidens tilgængelighed i forskellige sammenhæng. Det handler også om tilgængelighed for søgemaskiner, men ift. dem er det også vigtigt at indholdet er fornuftigt bygget op omkring de søgeord du gerne vil findes på. Du skal sikre dig at dine udviklere har de mest basale ting på plads, og hvis du ønsker dig at rangere godt på Google, er det nok også en idé at smide nogle ekstra penge efter decideret søgemaskineoptimering og link-building, men det er en anden side af sagen.

- Et unikt design

Det indtryk dine brugere får når de besøger din hjemmeside er meget afgørende. Få en designer til at lave et unikt design til jer, og hvis budgettet er knapt, så bare sørg for at holde det simpelt. Hellere et simpelt og personligt design end et masseproduceret tema som nok er nemt og flot, men kun har udskiftningen af et logo og ændringen af nogle farver til forskel fra tusind andre sider...

- Vær realistisk

Nu spørger du selv efter en fornuftig pris, og antyder således at budgettet langt fra er ubegrænset. Du må således være realistisk omkring at du ikke kan få det hele, og gøre op med dig selv hvad der er vigtigt netop for dig; hvad der giver dig værdi og hvad der ikke gør.

...

Det var i hvert fald lidt at tænke over. Håber at det er brugbart for dig :-)

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Niels Henriksen — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:56:56 GMT

Rasmus Kobbersmed:
Vi vil helst gerne have et firma til at stå for det som kan lave en form for CSM system så vi selv kan "redigere" i det og der skal være en nyhedsbrevs funktion.

Der er mange gode systemer der kan bruges og de fleste af dem er gratis. Jeg vil selv anbefale systemet Umbraco og andre vil anbefale andet system.

Med nyhedsbrev vil jeg anbefale Mailchimp og lige præcis Mailchimp og Umbraco har jeg sat sammen for en anden kunde hvor deres site er under udvikling.

Rasmus Kobbersmed:
Er der nogen som har forslag til firmaer/personer som kan gøre dette til en fornuftig pris?

Man vil ikke kunne give en fornuftig pris uden at kende dine krav til sitet.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Phillip Dyhr Hobbs — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:38:25 GMT

5000-10 000????

Are you guys crazy!

If its just a website for a resturant, It could EASILY be done PROFESSIONALLY for under 5000!!!!

And i mean 5000 INCULDING a unique GREAT design...

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Lundsby — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 15:37:38 GMT

Hej Rasmus

Hvis du kan vente til November, så tror jeg CloudSprout kunne være lige noget for dig.

Fordelen ved CloudSprout er at din designer selv kan lave hele arbejdet, der er ikke længere brug for en programmør. Det spare en masse tid og penge.

CloudSprout har indbygget CMS, som vi har gjort ekstremt nemt at bruge. Man klikker bare på blyanten ud for det man vil rette, og en dialoger leder en sikkert igennem rettelsen.

I CloudSprout elsker vi mindre virksomheder og iværksætteri, så vi har lavet en gratis version, som de fleste mindre virksomheder vi kunne være i (200Mb plads og 3 Gb trafik). Med CloudSprout er hosting inkluderet i pakke, så det bliver ikke nemmere og billigere.

Hvis du er interesseret i at prøve CloudSprout, så smid mig en mail på plu@cloudsprout.com, så sender jeg et login så snart vi har en version klar.

Svar: Programmering af hjemmeside

Rasmus Kobbersmed — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:48:59 GMT

Jeg vil sammen med min grafiske designer, se om vi kan komme med et layout i løbet af denne uge og så vil jeg tage fat i nogen af jer som har skrevet og høre hvad i skal have for det.

tusinde tak for hjælpen, i høre fra mig snarest muligt!

Mvh
Rasmus